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Post by shokushuko on Dec 29, 2011 22:27:50 GMT -5
THIS GAME IS OVER-RATED~~~
Well, not really, but I figure people would like to respond to it. This game has lots and lots of love, but I don't think it's really that much better than a lot of other games. This is a general thread to start things in though.
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Post by Vireo Gilvus on Dec 30, 2011 4:37:45 GMT -5
It's a good game (one of my favorites in the series, even), but most of its fans like it for the wrong reasons.
Yes, it revolutionized the RPG genre in terms of gameplay and presentation, and for that its early popularity is deserved. But something disturbing happened sometime later on, when armies of squeeing bishounen-aholics came out of the woodwork and elevated FF7's popularity to colossal levels.
I mean, yes, collecting and leveling Materia and racing Chocobos in the Gold Saucer can be amazingly fun, and you gotta have respect for all the artists and designers and animators (not to mention Uematsu, who gave us some of his best pieces in that title). But sheesh! The fanbase overreacted, and Square Enix overreacted to the fanbase, diluting the impact and value of the original game with their mid-2000s expanded universe titles.
It was the beginning of the end for the series. Now it's mostly about fanservice.
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Post by shokushuko on Dec 30, 2011 6:47:12 GMT -5
Sephiroth isn't even worth bishie-lover attention <_<
He was a sucky villain Y_Y
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Post by Warlock on Dec 30, 2011 19:17:57 GMT -5
Final Fantasy 7- that's kind of a tough one. I'd say 'slightly overrated', but with heavy emphasis on the 'slighty'.
Taken in a vacuum, I'd rate FF7 as a good-to-excellent game. The various gameplay systems are interesting, the storyline is very good, the production values are excellent- it probably looks dated today but it's mind-blowing compared to many of it's contemporaries. Does the game have its faults? Well, sure- it could have been more challenging and it could have been less linear, it could have had more distinct characters and it could have had less Yuffie. But all in all it's a highly-polished package and an excellent RPG. I once read a magazine review of the game which summarized that the game's biggest fault is that it's a 20-out-of-10 when it could have been a 30-out-of-10, and I'm inclined to agree. That being said, there are also certainly other games since that have been as good or better; the reason I think FF7 is slightly overrated is that it tends to overshadow a lot of excellent games that were released before and after it (I personally, for example, think that FF6 was a marginally better game overall).
Historically speaking, Final Fantasy 7 had an enormous impact on the market. Many of the RPGs that had been released before FF7 in the 32/64-bit generation had been overgrown 16-bit RPGs... While they had better visuals, they were still the same overhead-view tile-based games. The same way that the grind-light and narrative-heavy Final Fantasy 4 showed us what a 16-bit RPG should be, Final Fantasy 7, with it's prerendered backdrops and CGI-augmented cutscenes showed us what a 32-bit RPG should be, and it's the template that many of them were based on. Final Fantasy 7, for better or for worse, is also the first RPG that really gained mainstream awareness in the west, and I feel (as I've said before) that it's really the game that demonstrated to publishers that Japanese RPGs could attract more than a cult audience in the US. I believe that its success paved the way for publishers to take a chance on many smaller RPGs, including many of the games we saw in the late 90s and early 2000s. I think that FF7 is indirectly responsible for the localization of many of the games we play today.
I think there's been a certain amount of backlash against FF7 simply because it's popular- hating FF7 is a bit like hating pop music; it's a way of building up your indie street cred and distancing yourself from The Man. It did suck a lot of oxygen away from other titles released around the same time, and tends to be lightning rod for complaints directed against Square as a whole because it's the most well-known game in their most well-known series. I think there are a lot of folks who see it as the origin of design tends they don't like, as well; because it was such a paradigm shift, it's easy to use as a signpost marking the end of the Good Old Days. Advent Children and the other tack-ons probably haven't helped this; they do look from where I'm sitting as something of an attempt to milk the franchise. (I should say for the record that I've heard good things about the PSP spinoff about Zack whose name I forget, and I thought that Advent Children was decent brain candy even if there wasn't really any substance to it.)
I'm honestly kind of surprised that we haven't seen a remastered, hi-def port of the game on the modern consoles. I've kind of been expecting to see one for the last five years or so, with stronger ties to the offshoots and everybody's Advent Children looks... It doesn't seem to have materialized (yet?), though.
- HC
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 30, 2011 23:08:30 GMT -5
Well...you seem to like non-linear...I prefer linear.
As to the rest of it...well, I tend to not like the "popular" stuff, and it has noting to do with "indie street cred" it has to do with my basic rebellion against all hype...I rebel at someone ELSE telling me what I ought to like. and I believe the hype creates the popularity...not the other way around.
We are basically told by the marketers what we ought to like, and I just rebel at that. I think I can decide for myself whether a game is worth my time and affection or not. I just plain don't like hype...and being told what I am supposed to like.
It has nothing to do with THE MAN...it just is a rebellion against the marketers treating me like a child who can't decide for myself what is good or not.
Many seem to like FF7, I confess to never having played it...mainly because of the hate I have for all FF other than the original, because of my experience with FF4 and the ATB battle system.
So I can't speak with any knowledge or experience on this game.
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Post by shokushuko on Dec 31, 2011 0:16:41 GMT -5
It's not about hype though. Final Fantasy 7 became popular due to it's own merits. Maybe some other games rode off of FF7's success, but generally all Final Fantasy games are at least decent anyway. No one is telling that you have to like Final Fantasy, people like Final Fantasy because they like Final Fantasy. Hype does no good. Plenty of games are hyped about, but when they turn out to be a piece of crap everyone shares the fact it's a piece of crap and the promoter's credibility is ruined. Your problem is: 1. You only like old-style games that give you nostalgia 2. You had a bad experience with the first game to have the ATB system so you hate anything with the ATB system. youarenotsosmart.com/2010/04/12/selling-out/People market what they know they can market. Marketing is just about exploiting what people already like, and selling lots of it to make money. You can't tell people what they want and you can't trick people into liking what they don't like. Hype doesn't change people's feelings, they just bring things into mainsteam. And Final Fantasy games are just as linear as Dragon Quest games anyway... So you actually support Final Fantasy on that point... |
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Post by Warlock on Dec 31, 2011 9:04:34 GMT -5
Regarding linearity: a little nonlinearity can be good, and FF7 was pretty much a straight shot. FF7's linearity didn't really bother me that much, but I really liked the way FF6 was structured. I think that we're passed the statute of limitations on this one, so I'm not gonna put in a spoiler warning, but in FF6 the first half of the game is linear, and then a big disaster happens which splits up the party and substantially changes the world map. The second half of the game involves taking control of one of the character's who's been in a coma for a year, doing a bunch of subquests to recover the other characters and get strong enough to run the last dungeon. It's pretty cool. It has more direction than, say, the SaGa games- you know what your goals are, roughly what's going on in each of the game's towns, and generally have some idea where to look for each of the game's characters- but it gives you some freedom to prioritize your goals and pick up your favorite characters first. Obviously FF7 probably didn't want to put together it's story exactly the same way, but it doesn't really have anything like that. It has nothing to do with THE MAN...it just is a rebellion against the marketers treating me like a child who can't decide for myself what is good or not. No offense, but saying that you don't like Final Fantasy 7 because you refuse to play anything that's been advertised is pretty much exactly what I was talking about with that.  - HC |
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Post by Vireo Gilvus on Dec 31, 2011 14:29:14 GMT -5
We can't guarantee what takes off and what doesn't. Hype isn't everything. The game itself has to have something that strikes a chord with the general public if it wants its popularity to skyrocket. DQ8 and DQ9 had surprisingly well- made advertising campaigns, yet neither really broke past "niche title" status. |
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 31, 2011 20:13:09 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with THE MAN...it just is a rebellion against the marketers treating me like a child who can't decide for myself what is good or not. No offense, but saying that you don't like Final Fantasy 7 because you refuse to play anything that's been advertised is pretty much exactly what I was talking about with that. - HC Advertised is one thing...HYPED TO THE SEVENTH HELL AND BACK is something quite different. |
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Post by Warlock on Jan 1, 2012 13:49:46 GMT -5
Advertised is one thing...HYPED TO THE SEVENTH HELL AND BACK is something quite different. What's the difference between advertising and hype? Is it like the difference between being derivative and being an homage? If it makes you feel any better: Again, Dragon Quest 8 sold quite respectably in the US and Japan. When I was younger I used to get bent out of shape about things like this, but I've since decided that it just wasn't worth the effort, y'know? I'm not the Typical Gamer demographic that a lot of companies are aiming to appeal to, and I'm okay with that- there are still a lot of great games in the world that I enjoy, and I also kind of like the challenge of finding them. Life's too short to spend time flying into a spittle-flecked rage because blockbusters that you don't like exist. - HC |
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Post by shokushuko on Jan 1, 2012 22:29:13 GMT -5
Games that are all eye candy never become successful. You can hype a piece of shit all you want but it's never going to become popular. I think you'll find that nothing becomes popular based off eye candy. Eye candy only makes something appealing enough to pick up. Once they find out the game is terrible, they tell others and the game becomes a failure.
Final Fantasy 7 didn't even have all that much advertising. The 'hype' you talk about is people playing the game, enjoying it a lot, and sharing their love for the game.
I honestly don't think that Dragon Quest games even have a better story than Final Fantasy 7. Dragon Quest games do have a good story, but they're generic. Final Fantasy is creative and mess around with the setting and concepts in their games. Final Fantasy 7 had a great story and it's only a matter of personal taste which dictates which story was better.
Since you've never played anything but Final Fantasy (NES) and Final Fantasy II (SNES), you don't actually have any justification for having an opinion on any other Final Fantasy game. That's the problem here. No one is really defending the ATB system, we just correct your misconceptions about it.
It's also a fact that your only experience with ATB is the first game to have it and you haven't even tried to see if it got better. Wait mode fixed all that was wrong with Final Fantasy 4's unfairness. Playing games in ATB Wait mode is similar enough to traditional turn-based games that they aren't worth complaining about.
It's not even a matter of your interest. You're just stubborn and judge things before you've even tried them. You have an irrational hate of the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy 4 (SNES) was the HARDEST game that featured the ATB system. Everything else was easy. I found Phantasy Star and the original Dragon Quest harder than Final Fantasy 5 - 9... I'm not trying to change your mind about the ATB system, I'm trying to get you to get over your bad experience with Final Fantasy 4 and judge each Final Fantasy game individually after playing them. I mean, you could atleast play the Final Fantasy games until they actually get to a point worth rage quitting at. I'm not even telling you to do it now. But you should refrain from trashing them until you do.
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Post by shokushuko on Jan 4, 2012 2:00:26 GMT -5
Hating on Final Fantasy in Dragon Quest communities is like hating on Coca Cola, or Microsoft. It's just fangirl/fanboy behavior and brand loyalty... They're both good RPG series youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/The problem is that you were just trashing Final Fantasy 7's story when you haven't even bothered to research what the story is. And saying that you haven't heard hype about Final Fantasy 7's story is kind of a weak argument if you haven't been in a proper discussion about the game. |
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Jan 5, 2012 8:46:41 GMT -5
Then have a proper discussion about this game without me.
I have deleted a number of posts, INCLUDING MANY OF MY OWN...before anyone accuses me of censorship. this was done to clean up this thread, while leaving the essence of the argument intact.
As far as I am concerned, that argument is now finished. we obviously do not agree, and we are not going to agree.
Have a discussion about FF7...but no further reference will be made to the above argument - any such post will be deleted. Fair warning.
Now, carry on about FF7....
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Post by shokushuko on Jan 6, 2012 2:31:23 GMT -5
I don't believe you're unwelcome in this discussion and you could still contribute. Just talk about the story and characters with us~ Okay... Let's start with something simple (and childish). Pairings~~ Now I probably prefer Tifa/Cloud. I mean, they were the real pairing in this game. People who pair Cloud with Aeris are silly. Aeris just saw bits of Zack in him. I mean, they could of gotten together and had a good enough relationship, but it's far from the perfect love story that the shippers like to imagine. Cloud/Yuffie is just silliness because Yuffie isn't really a serious character and there isn't anything between them. |
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Jan 6, 2012 9:22:15 GMT -5
I don't believe you're unwelcome in this discussion and you could still contribute. Just talk about the story and characters with us~ Okay... Let's start with something simple (and childish). Pairings~~ Now I probably prefer Tifa/Cloud. I mean, they were the real pairing in this game. People who pair Cloud with Aeris are silly. Aeris just saw bits of Zack in him. I mean, they could of gotten together and had a good enough relationship, but it's far from the perfect love story that the shippers like to imagine. Cloud/Yuffie is just silliness because Yuffie isn't really a serious character and there isn't anything between them. I don't believe I am unwelcome either. However, as I am not familiar with the story or characters, since I have not played...I'm not really able to discuss these things. Carry on. |
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