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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 23, 2011 21:24:04 GMT -5
I moved these posts from the old Thread about Metroid, since I felt the question raised here was worthy of it's own thread. There are valid arguments for both sides of the issue.
I have quoted the Original posts, but modified them to cut out the parts that did not specifically deal with this question of New versus Used....
Note that I added bold and underline in one of Strider's original post...which was the central question, and the post which actually brought this topic about.
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 23, 2011 21:31:47 GMT -5
The answer is that I haven't reay played any of those, usually as a consequence of not having the systems they were released on until they disappeared from the shelves. I never owned a GBC and didn't get a GBA until the SP was released, so I couldn't play the Oracle games when they were released. I eventually tried them on an emulator and they seemed pretty cool, but I didn't play them through. A close friend at the time was a big fan, for what that's worth. Ditto for Minish Cap- I didn't get a DS until the DS Lite was released, by which point Minish Cap was hard to find. - HC For what it's worth, Strider, one can often find some of the good older games at GameStop in their used cart section...or on EBay...sometimes, even Amazon has them. As a veteran old-schooler, I can confirm this...though you often have to look really hard for them. Well, all of those things are- of course- possibilities; I guess I'm just not a big enough fan to follow through on any of them. I did want to say, though, that I have moral objections to buying used at Gamestop. When you buy used, the original developer of the game you're buying gets nothing- it all goes to the seller. Gamestop exploits this for extra profits by aggressively pushing used games while moving new ones off the shelves as quickly as possible- at the same time benefiting from the developer's advertising dollars.I'm not going to fault anyone too much for saving a couple of bucks by buying used, but remember that it doesn't count as a sale from the developer's point of view and not a cent of the money you're spending will find its' way to them. If you're buying obscure games in niche genres, it's worth keeping in mind that used games cut into the developer's revenue, and that revenue is what they're going to use to make their next game. Obviously this probably isn't a concern for Nintendo-made Zelda games, but it's a good thing to keep in mind. - HC Devils Advocate: First...when you buy a game USED...this means someone ELSE bought it new, and the developer got his cut when it was sold as a new game. Secondly, GameStop gets it's used games from people...and gives them money, and so they recoup some of that money selling the used games. Also, keep in mind for old-school games...used is often the only way you can GET those titles, since the original publisher long ago quit making new carts for the wanted game. Obviously, if there is a choice between New and Used...for the same title, I'll pick the New one...for the reason you mention above. For most oldschool titles, most of the ones I am interested in...there is no market for NEW carts for that game, as the original publisher quit making them long ago. I dare you to try and find a NEW copy, say, of the original NES Zelda game. Or Metroid. Or the Original Dragon Quest. even something more recent such as The Dark Spire for DS...you would now almost surely have to get a USED copy, since they likely do not offer any more NEW carts for the game. So there's two sides to this argument. Given a choice between NEW and USED....for the same wanted title, yes, I'll take the NEW. Partly because of the reason of the developer getting his money. Also, partly because, with a USED cart...you never know for how long it will work, or if it WILL work...though I have to say I have never been burned on a USED cart. But I do know of people who have been...though not thru GameStop....but from sales on EBay. |
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Post by Warlock on Dec 24, 2011 10:38:30 GMT -5
Devils Advocate:
First...when you buy a game USED...this means someone ELSE bought it new, and the developer got his cut when it was sold as a new game. Secondly, GameStop gets it's used games from people...and gives them money, and so they recoup some of that money selling the used games. Well: 1. For obvious reasons, from the developer's point of view, making two sales is- of course- better than making one sale. 2. Gamestop is a notoriously bad way to sell used games- they give a worse deal to both the buyer and seller than they'd get on eBay, and take the difference for themselves... You're much better off cutting out the middleman. Also, keep in mind for old-school games...used is often the only way you can GET those titles, since the original publisher long ago quit making new carts for the wanted game. I don't deny this, but it doesn't make me like the Gamestop business model any more. It's also worth noting that a lot of those games are available in the form of ports and/or VC releases, too, and that my observation is that the big-box stores (Best Buy, etc) have gotten a lot better in recent years at continuing to stock older games (or maybe they just don't clear out their unsold inventory as often). I dare you to try and find a NEW copy, say, of the original NES Zelda game. Or Metroid. Or the Original Dragon Quest. even something more recent such as The Dark Spire for DS...you would now almost surely have to get a USED copy, since they likely do not offer any more NEW carts for the game. New copies of The Dark Spire: www.amazon.com/Dark-Spire-Nintendo-DS/dp/B001OALQIA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324740825&sr=8-1That being said, this is why I've gotten into the habit of picking up games that I think I might want to play later- one of the reasons my stack of games-to-play is so tall.  So there's two sides to this argument. Given a choice between NEW and USED....for the same wanted title, yes, I'll take the NEW. Partly because of the reason of the developer getting his money. Also, partly because, with a USED cart...you never know for how long it will work, or if it WILL work...though I have to say I have never been burned on a USED cart. But I do know of people who have been...though not thru GameStop....but from sales on EBay. Well, I want to underscore my opinion that I feel like the villian in the used games story is Gamestop's business model, not people trying to save a couple bucks by buying used games. I do, however, feel like those of us who like obscure or niche genres- of which "old-school RPGs" are a borderline member- should keep in mind that developers do not make any profit from used games, and that for something like The Dark Spire, a couple thousand copies can be the difference between "Make The Dark Spire 2" and "Dissolve the development team". - HC |
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 24, 2011 13:01:29 GMT -5
You raise some valid points, Strider, as well as I also raise some valid points.
For me...given a choice between new and used, I'll pick NEW every time. Not just because of the developer, but simply because I know that it is in perfect condition, and guaranteed to work.
As I mention, however, for many old-school and niche games...USED is the only option, NEW ones often cannot be obtained. I'm surprised to see available copies of The Dark Spire still available NEW. I bought that one on your recommendation, and was not disappointed...in fact, it made my top ten list.
I really can't fault GameStop for trying to make a buck connecting people with used titles...and buying them back from other customers, usually giving them credit on new ones.
I liken it to the choice between a new car versus a used car.
I happen to own a 2001 Hyundai sonata. I bought it used, in cash, no payments.
This was my choice. I do not like payments. I fear the future, and I would hate to have a lot of money in a car, fail to make a few payments due to unforseen bad luck a few years down the road....and then have someone take the car away...along with all the money I put into it in payments and repairs.
On my car...Hyundai...made no money...on my purchase. They already made their money when the owner before me bought it new.
the dealer who sold it to me...probably gave the previous owner money off a new car for him...and then sold me the old car to make their money back.
The way I see it, everyone's happy. Mr. X got a new car...got some money off, and got rid of an older car he no longer wanted. Mr. Dealer made a sale on a new car. Mr. Manufacturer made a profit on the same new car sale. Mr. Dealer recouped his discount on the new car...by selling ME the old car. I got a newer car that I liked...and got a deal where I did not have to make any payments. so I win...and so did everyone else in this transaction.
Now, obviously, new carts cost nowhere near what new cars do...but the profit chain is the same...and everyone involved in the entire chain all got something they wanted from it.
For those who cannot afford NEW...and therefore make the choice to buy USED over NEW...well, that's the reality of this economy, not all of us CAN afford to make the choice the developer might wish.
Personally...even though I download ROM's and play every game on my Acekard...I buy NEW CARTS of every game on my Acekard.
You can't fault GameStop for trying to make money by filling a legitimate demand. You can steer folks away from that deal, pointing them to EBay or Amazon.
It's not any different that someone, like me...who objects to paying eight bucks for a movie...and so waits until it hits the cheap theatre...and who then goes to that theatre's matinee and pays only a buck to see the same movie...although it is usually two-three months after it's release.
In reality, I never pay to see movies, because my brother is an executive with Carmike Cinemas. but I used the movie example to give another point of view on the issue.
However...I will say this about the movie thing...
the theatre makes no money on movie tickets...they make their money on concessions. I know this for a fact because of my brother.
The movie ticket only covers the theatre's operating expense, and the fee paid to the producing company for the movie itself. SO...at the dollar theatre...that dollar IS STILL GOING to the production company...it is their way of wringing the last little bit of profit they can out of it. Versus the developer making NO MONEY on the sale of the used game.
Like I said, there are many different aspects to consider here...and obviously, I would encourage those who could afford it...to pick new over used...but in cases where new is not available...or new is not affordable...I can't blame players for seeking out used carts...and I can't fault any business who attempts to fill that demand market for used carts.
And that is MY 2 cents worth. You do have some valid points Strider...but I think an outright condemnation of used cart buyers...or used cart sellers...is not warranted.
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Post by shokushuko on Dec 26, 2011 6:14:48 GMT -5
Do you not rent movies either? Or buy anything second-hand? Does this moral code apply to libraries too or is it opposing anyone making money off reselling? Does that mean retail itself is morally objectable?
Going out of your way to get a new copy of a game is commendable, sure, but you still shouldn't say no to buying a second-hand item if you can't get it new anymore. Getting an old game out of a bargain bin hardly supports a developer either, they already made the money from the retail store that bought the game to stock their shelves. The only time where you're really supporting a game is when you buy it new when it's new stock.
But anyway, I first played Link to the Past second-hand on the SNES (I won the SNES when I was little. LttP was probably like the third game I had). I got Oracles of Seasons second-hand sometime after it came out before I even owned a GBC (My brother had a second hand GBC though) and I probably with-in a year I got a GBA SP new (sometime after it came out, it's also the only console I currently own unless you count a laptop PC <_<) We got a second-hand N64 sometime when GameCubes were out, complete with 6 games (including Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask)(It was also a UK N64 and only the crappy little TV we got with it would play sound). I think I got Minish Cap new though. I played Oracles of Ages and Links Awakening on an emulator. I played Wind Waker, Four Swords Adventure, and Twilight Princess on a flat-mate's Wii. I played Phantom Hourglass on her DS. I played some of Spirit Tracks too, but not enough of it.
I still don't understand why you'd discount the 3D games. Which ones did you play and ho much of it?
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 26, 2011 9:05:26 GMT -5
Glad to see shokushuko, that you seem to support my point of view regarding used games. and you also offer up example I did not think of, including libraries, other "reselling" sites like Ebay...and here's another...how about folks on GameFly?
All that said...I think the thing about the 3D games was directed at me...and while it's off this topic, I will answer here...
First, most of the 3D games...the controls are just too damned complicated. Press and hold right while you press button a and C to throw a punch? No thank you. I like simple.
Also, I'm going to guess you are considerably younger than I am...this is the usual case on boards like these, I'm usually the old-timer.
I'm 40 years old, and I simply prefer the games of my youth...the games I grew up with. It's called nostalgia. When you reach 40 years old you will understand.
Let me tell you a little something funny about life:
You spend about the first 20 years of it trying to reach your "glory days"...you spend maybe ten years there...and then you spend the rest of your life trying to recapture them!
I'm not sure what kind of music you're into, but Bruce Springsteen captures this perfectly in his song "Glory Days."
so the short answer would be that I'm into the old-school games...and eschew the newer games....because I am trying to recapture MY glory days.
Notable exceptions here being that I am playing Dragon Quest 9 (the original came out in the 1980's) and The Dark spire...which had that FEEL.
Note that I emulate all manner of Atari 2600 games on my DS thru the use of an Acekard...and I emulate over 200 actual 1980's-style arcade games, using MAME...on my Dingoo. Like I said...those were the games of my glory days.
All THAT said...I'm very happy to provide this place for gamers of all ages and tastes to come together to discuss these things. every once in a while, something catches my eye, and I end up glad that it did...for example, I learned of The Dark Spire...through strider...on a previous Board like this run by a mutual friend.
Never would have heard of it, if not for that. It was not very much advertised. But his review of it intrigued me, as it seemed to be the type of old school dungeon crawler that I would like. so I tried it...and am glad I did.
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Post by Warlock on Dec 26, 2011 10:10:00 GMT -5
You raise some valid points, Strider, as well as I also raise some valid points. For me...given a choice between new and used, I'll pick NEW every time. Not just because of the developer, but simply because I know that it is in perfect condition, and guaranteed to work. As I mention, however, for many old-school and niche games...USED is the only option, NEW ones often cannot be obtained. I'm surprised to see available copies of The Dark Spire still available NEW. I bought that one on your recommendation, and was not disappointed...in fact, it made my top ten list. Well, again- my argument doesn't apply to games that can't be obtained any other way; there are definitely games I've picked up used in the past because I decided that I really should play them a couple years after they were released. It also does not apply, for the record, to people who can't afford new- although they may be better off with EBay than GameStop. It's not the fact that they have used games that bugs me; it's that they're pushed so aggressively there. I typically see used sections that are larger and better-stocked than the New sections, and it seems like new games that aren't megahits disappear from the new shelves awfully quickly. In a way, to play off your movie theater example, imagine that there were a company whose business model was to set up pushcarts right outside movie theaters, selling concessions for half the movie theater's prices. They benefit from everything the movie theater does- the movie theater's advertising, movie selection, and facilities bring the pushcart more customers. The pushcart, however, doesn't pay for any of this- they just snipe the movie theaters customers with concessions that are priced low because they don't have to cover any of the costs associated with actually showing movies. Gamestop's business model is the same sort of thing, and it strikes me as being sleazy enough that I don't spend any money there if I can avoid it. - HC |
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 26, 2011 10:23:03 GMT -5
Well, the pushcart, in your scenario...would be removed by police for trespassing on private property.
the movie theatre could also request to search all incoming patrons, and refuse admittance to those bringing in outside concessions.
The problem isn't really Gamestop. It is the OVERHYPING of certain titles...and the huge UNDERADVERTISING of other titles.
Beautiful example of this is The Dark Spire. This was very unadvertised. I never once heard it advertised. I never would have heard of it at all if not for your review on it, Strider. And I never would have bought it. And I would have missed out on an awesome game!!
Dark Spire left the shelves of brick and mortar stores pretty quick, I think. But you can find new copies of FF7 STILL in stores. Because FF is OVERHYPED. We, the consumer...are TOLD what to like...and like brainless automatons, we mostly do. I am one who rebels against this...and tends to highly avoid the HYPED games - because I know they probably suck...and are being pushed on us and hyped for us...I know that often they are packaging a turd to look like a rose.
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Post by Warlock on Dec 26, 2011 11:28:39 GMT -5
Do you not rent movies either? Or buy anything second-hand? Does this moral code apply to libraries too or is it opposing anyone making money off reselling? Does that mean retail itself is morally objectable? I think I covered this adequately in my previous post, but to reiterate/summarize: my position is not "nobody should buy used games ever", it is "none of the money exchanged in used game sales gets back to the developer, and that's probably a good thing to keep in mind if you like obscure genres". Zelda is a AAA franchise made by a big-name publisher; there will almost certainly be more Zelda games, even if a lot of copies are bought used. The same is not true of a lot of the series I like which come from smaller developers. I've played a couple hours into Ocarina of Time on a couple occasions and not been able to get into it; ditto Metroid Prime. Metroid Prime I had trouble with because of the first-person perspective- for whatever reason, I have trouble managing the sort of platform-jumping they expected me to do in 3D, and I often found myself having difficulty understanding what was going in in the boss battles as well. Maybe I just haven't played enough FPSes, I dunno. I can't really put my finger on why I didn't like Ocarina of Time offhand; it did feel awfully slow-paced and I remember the targeting controls being kind of sticky. The fact that most of the subsequent games were released on systems I don't own probably had something to do with my lack of excitement about them as well. Don't get me wrong: I don't think either series was bad; judging from the receptions they've gotten, they must have been doing something right. They've just never really 'clicked' with me. - HC |
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Post by Warlock on Dec 26, 2011 11:58:57 GMT -5
Well, the pushcart, in your scenario...would be removed by police for trespassing on private property. the movie theatre could also request to search all incoming patrons, and refuse admittance to those bringing in outside concessions. It's a metaphor.  - HC |
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Post by shokushuko on Dec 26, 2011 12:39:00 GMT -5
I'm not accusing you of enforcing your morals on others, I'm just questioning your logic. And what I was really arguing was that you shouldn't be afraid to buy something second-hand when it's an old game. Unless you're able to buy straight from the suppliers, I honestly wouldn't bother. Buying a retailer's dusty old stock is only benefitting the retailer. The developer made their money already. The only time to support developers is when the game first comes out and is in stores, and likely to be restocked after your purchase. Just don't shop at GameStop. Everyone hates GameStop, making jokes about how GameStop sucks is typical gamer-based humor. Corporate greed is everywhere anyway. When you buy a game, I'm sure the executives and retailers are getting more money than the actual developers anyway.
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 26, 2011 12:55:59 GMT -5
But where can you go other than Game Stop?
I mean a brick-and-mortar store?
OK maybe in a giant city you have choice...here in the boonies of Pennsylvania, I have no choice other than the internet, shipping charges and waiting forever. If I want a game now...and to shop in brick and mortar stores, I have no choice but Game Stop.
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Post by Warlock on Dec 26, 2011 14:09:01 GMT -5
The selections in Boston actually arent that great either.... I've had pretty good luck with big-box electronics stores; Best Buy's selection has improved notably over the last couple years. I used to live near a place called Micro Center that had a good selection, too, but they seem to be attempting to rebrand themselves as an office supplier and cut down their game selection significantly.
I usually go with Amazon or Steam these days.
- HC
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 26, 2011 17:01:15 GMT -5
The selections in Boston actually arent that great either.... I've had pretty good luck with big-box electronics stores; Best Buy's selection has improved notably over the last couple years. I used to live near a place called Micro Center that had a good selection, too, but they seem to be attempting to rebrand themselves as an office supplier and cut down their game selection significantly. I usually go with Amazon or Steam these days. - HC Best Buy doesn't seem to stock much here. Neither KMart or WalMart. I tend to be stuck with Amazon, myself. If they have it in stock, and I want it fast, I will grudgingly go to Game Stop for it. I did that with the US Releases of DW4, DQ5, and DQ6 DS. I had the ability to pre-order...and pick up right away, on the release date, so I did that. I was not sure Amazon and the mail service would get it to me on the release date, and that I might have to wait. |
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Post by Kalisiin Kumaki on Dec 27, 2011 20:57:46 GMT -5
If I could know more about a specific game to see if I MIGHT like it....and then I would do my standard thing for games I am not sure about...
1. Locate and download ROM for game.
2. Try game.
3. Decide if I like it.
if liked then
A - Buy a legitimate cart of the game
B - Continue to play the game on my Acekard
C - Use my neat little tool to transfer my savestate to the legit cart, but also continue to play on Acekard.
if not liked then
A - Delete game from Acekard
B - Delete ROM from my computer.
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