RPG or Not??? Kid Icarus

[Kalisiin Kumaki]

This game is on the borderline between RPG/not-RPG...but is definitely in the category of Action versus Traditional.

It is a game I have enjoyed quite a bit...along with The Guardian Legend...which is another in the same sort of vein.

[Warlock]

I'd say handily "Not RPG" for Kid Icarus, but my definition of "RPG" seems to be a lot less conservative than yours.

I'd say the same for Zelda, Metroid, and TGL, honestly.

- HC

[Kalisiin Kumaki]

Actually, Kid Icarus...like Metroid and Zelda...are what I would call an "Action RPG" and TGL falls into this category too, although, TGL...and Metroid...fall into a slightly yet different category, in my mind, because Metroid...and TGL offer puzzles and stuff, it is not straightforward action.

Kid Icarus has a very definite storyline and goal...which is what qualifies a game as an RPG to me. You are taking the role of a title character with a defined goal.

TRADITIONAL RPG, to me...is one which is turn-based and menu-driven...like DW/DQ. Or the original FF game.

I'd actually say YOUR definition of what is...or is not, an RPG...is MORE conservative than mine...since I consider certain fringe games to be RPG, whereas you do not.

I'd be interested in what characteristics a game needs to have, in your mind...to be considered an RPG.

For me...it has to be a set storyline, a defined character, which you control...and a defined goal...which you eventually reach, and thus "win the game" (although many RPG's have "after-game" content.)

Consider:

Metroid, once you win, you start again, but with all the bonus items (but not life-tanks) - and Samus turns out to be a woman. so you "win" the game, by beating Mother Brain...but then you have after-game content.

The same is true for

Kid Icarus...once you win, you go back to the start, but you also have all you accumulated power items when you start out.

Now, The Guardian Legend...you get to the end, and that's it...but you have an option of entering the code "TGL" and it gives you an all-action, shoot-em-up version, without the overlay....but you can also get that straight up if you know the code. It just doesn't give you that code till you beat the game...but nothing unlocks, you could buy a brand-new never played cart and enter that code, and get the same thing. so that is not so much "after-game content" as it is an alternate version of the game.

But The Guardian Legend has many puzzles and things you have to figure out...which is, to me, a very large element to any good RPG.

Shoot-em-up alone really doesn't do it for me...for me, there HAS to be an element of thinking and figuring things out.

Even Kid Icarus has the dungeons which you have to figure out...and you have to figure out how to survive and get healed of the Eggplant Curse, and so on.

A game which has none of the stuff you have to learn, think about and figure out...to my way of thinking...is not an RPG. You might as well call Space invaders an RPG. Nothing there but mindless blowing aliens away. There's something to be said for that sort of game sometimes, but it is NOT an RPG.

So, for me...the elements needed to be an RPG are:

1. A Protagonist - which you control
2. A Backstory
3. A defined goal
4. Things to figure out, discover, and learn - a THINKING element.
5. A definite end to the game (a "win" point, as it were...where the stated original goal is achieved. A game may have after-game content and still be an RPG.)
6. A basic linearity...although towards the end of many games, the linearity tends to get a bit lost. so the linearity need not be super-strict...but there should be an element of linearity.

[Warlock]

I did mean to say 'more conservative'- oops!

My issue with your definition is that it seems like you've outlined a category broad enough that many modem games would fit in it and, at the same time, leaves out some things that are definitively
RPGs in my mind.

The single-player modes of many modern action games have all of the things you mentioned- The Devil May Cry games are not RPGs by any stretch of the imagination, but they have a protagonist who improves his abilities by finding items and spending resources, a storyline with a defined goal, and things to discover and learn (the locations of secret areas, which buyable abilities are the best, the strategies required to fight the game's various enemy types, etc).

On the other side of the coin, most roguelikes fail at least one of the categories that you've mentioned above, often "backstory" or "plot" but occasionally "must have an ending" (I know a couple of the Mysterious Dungeon games lack that). The sum total of the original Rogue's backstory and plot is "Recover the Amulet of Yendor from the Dungeon of Doom"... I'm not sure I can accept a definition of "RPG" that includes Devil May Cry and God of War but not Nethack.

- HC

[Kalisiin Kumaki]

but this is WHY we have a discussion board to hash these things out.

I did not mean that my "rules" were hard and fast with no exceptions...and I did not mean that a game that meets all those IS DEFINITELY an RPG...or that a game that has all but one or two of those is NOT.

But those aspects are what games should have...to be an RPG.

as always, there are exceptions to every rule.

Take, as an example...Shadowgate for the NES. No backstory. But it has everything else. And it definitely is an RPG...admittedly a crappy one since, once you figure it out...that is it. It's good one time. It took me six months to figure it out. But now I can play thru in fifteen minutes.

[Warlock]

If I had to sort, I'd put Shadowgate in with point-and-click adventure games rather than other RPGs. It has way more in common with the old Sierra adventure games than, say, Dragon Warrior.

How do you feel about The Uninvited and Deja Vu?

- HC

[Kalisiin Kumaki]

I guess I would agree with you about shadowgate.

Honestly never played the others you mentioned

[Warlock]

Speaking of Kid Icarus, news about the new Kid Icarus game seems to be tricking out- looks pretty cool, actually, but not cool enough to sell me on a 3DS.

Anyone else watching the game?

- HC

[Kalisiin Kumaki]

Jan 23, 2012 17:28:31 GMT -5 Warlock said:

Speaking of Kid Icarus, news about the new Kid Icarus game seems to be tricking out- looks pretty cool, actually, but not cool enough to sell me on a 3DS.

Anyone else watching the game?

- HC

Have not checked this out as I do not have a 3DS. Do you have a link to a You tube video or anything you can provide for us?

[Warlock]

It's kinda hard to post a link because I'm on my phone, but Kotaku posted a recent promo here: m.kotaku.com/5877435/space+kraken-and-evil-twins-all-in-a-days-work-for-kid-icarus

They linked back to their review of the game, too. Looks like its even more a definitively an action game than the original, but I'm interested because I'm big fan of the Starfox-stlyle rail shooters, and there really aren't that many of them around.

- HC

[Kalisiin Kumaki]

Jan 23, 2012 17:40:53 GMT -5 Warlock said:

It's kinda hard to post a link because I'm on my phone, but Kotaku posted a recent promo here: m.kotaku.com/5877435/space+kraken-and-evil-twins-all-in-a-days-work-for-kid-icarus

They linked back to their review of the game, too. Looks like its even more a definitively an action game than the original, but I'm interested because I'm big fan of the Starfox-stlyle rail shooters, and there really aren't that many of them around.

- HC

VERY nice!! thanks for this, Strider. This one looks way cool to me...they have taken an old classic like Kid Icarus...given it a makeover into more of an action game than it was....it looks a bit like some of those thousand-bullet hell games I like.

I think 3DS games can still be played on the 2D DSiXL...you just don't get the 3D effect.

Have to keep an eye open for a U.S. release on this one - and give it a try in my usual way...